How America Became a Nation of “Free Speech Hypocrites”

In the following excerpt, Derek and Greg Lukianoff explore the state of the First Amendment right now and how the right has adopted some of the tactics of the left. 

Derek Thompson: Before we go dumpster diving into the flaming wreckage that is the state of America’s First Amendment principles …

Greg Lukianoff: Yeah, it ain’t great.

Thompson: … what is FIRE, the Foundation for Individual Rights and Expression, and how did you first get involved with it?

Lukianoff: Sure. FIRE is 26 years old. We’re best known for defending free speech and academic freedom on campus because that’s what we did for most of our existence. But in 2022, we decided to expand our mission; actually, well before that we decided to. And we now defend free speech nationally, both on and off campus. And I joined FIRE because I hyper-specialized in First Amendment law. This was my reason for going to law school in the first place. And when they were looking for their first legal director, I was actually recommended by name by the dean of my law school. This is not an accidental choice for me, and like a lot of people who joined FIRE, this is why they get up in the morning. So freedom of speech is an issue very dear to all of our hearts.

Thompson: And certainly the last month is why you get up in the morning. I would say the last few weeks have been a high point.

Lukianoff: I’d say the last month was a little bit like what makes you want to stay in bed some days.

Thompson: Depending on how motivated you are …

Lukianoff: I was like, oh, God, what is it today?

Thompson: … either a high point for your mission or a low point for free speech principles. So just to get people all on the same page here, in the last few weeks, we’ve had the FCC openly threaten a broadcaster over a comedian’s monologue. The president of the United States said the broadcast networks running stories that are “against” him should maybe lose their licenses. The vice president encouraged Americans to turn in their colleagues if they said nasty things about Charlie Kirk. Hundreds of people have been fired for comments or social media posts about Kirk’s assassination.

So that’s the state of play as I see it. And I think a lot of liberals like me, who in any given week aren’t paying laser-like attention to free speech issues, feel like some very important lines were crossed in the last few weeks. But I really do want to be humble and honest here that this is your expertise and not mine. And so I want to know from you, what do you think is novel about the Trump administration’s assault on free speech principles in the last few weeks? Does it feel as frighteningly unique and out of step with recent American history as it feels to me?

Lukianoff: Well, I would say it’s not that unique because it’s actually what he’s been doing for eight months now and started actually even before Trump was re-inaugurated. So the techniques have been similar, but was there an acceleration post–Charlie Kirk? Absolutely. And some of the crazy things that were coming out of Trump’s own mouth or the administration were really head-spinning. But I would also like to remind people, though, that the reason why it got so intense over the past two weeks was because an activist was murdered for speaking on campus, which, as someone who speaks on campus—and sometimes my point of view is not all that popular, and I’m kind of hated by aspects of the right and the left—that was something that really played with people’s heads pretty badly. But turning that into an opportunity, though, to go against your political enemies is something they’ve clearly decided to do.

The strangeness of it, and there’s a question about whether or not it’s an intentional tactic, is the adoption wholeheartedly of a lot of the tactics that were used or a lot of the rationales that were used by the left on campus. So, for example, Pam Bondi coming out and saying that people saying insensitive things about Charlie Kirk’s murder, that that would be hate speech, is a little bit jarring for us. Because we’ve been making the argument that hate speech, for one thing, it’s not actually an exception under the First Amendment.

I also don’t believe it should be; I think it’s a disastrously bad idea. But watching not only Pam Bondi adopt that, but Trump then tell a reporter who was giving him some not even particularly hostile questions, but that maybe you could be found guilty of hate speech was like, OK. So I wrote something in The New York Times arguing about how there are all these arguments that were kind of made popular on the left and during the Biden administration, for example. Like the embrace of misinformation as a good rationale for censorship, or hate speech again, or the use of Title IX to go after speech. And the Trump administration is repeating these right back with few variations, except their preferred title is Title VI. And the hate speech that they’re talking about is even more loosey-goosey than the left’s.

Host: Derek Thompson
Guest: Greg Lukianoff
Producer: Devon Baroldi